Knee Dragging

[TOM-CAT]

Here is a nice little write up I came across randomly...

Link (http://www.r1-forum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=171467)

I like this guy.:thumbup: Every time I thought of something to add, I found it added later in the writeup. :clapping:

(Just something to get us through these hard times without the two wheeled thrills. :ride::rad:)

[rickster]

Good stuff! :clapping:

[ZXenigma]

Hey guys, long time. Sounds like all is well. Our bikes are hibernating in storage. Anyway.

I agree. I really liked that article. I was glad to see he addressed some things about knee dragging / hanging off that usually don't get talked about. Mainly, he made a point of showing how you can get through a corner at the same speed using two completely different degrees of lean angle.

So in a way, he also discussed the whole reason for knee dragging / hanging off. What is the point? I've been asking this question alot since about 1991, and the answer I usually get is, "It takes some of the force off the tires and holds the bike up. If they lifted their knee up, the bike would slide out." Or that it's simply a way of feeling how far over they are so they will know when they are about to low side. I never felt satisfied with these answers and I finally found an answer I liked in one of Keith Codes a "twist of the wrist" books. I think it was the second one.

The answer is, like mentioned in the article, when you hang off, the bikes lean angle decreases. The easiest way to experience proof of this, is to do it opposite. Go around a corner (constant radius), and half way through it lean / shift your weight to the outside (the opposite of what you would do to try to drag a knee). The lean angle will increase. Incidentally, this is a method that can be used to do a low speed super tight radius turn, like when doing a u turn in the middle of the highway or parking lot.

So its obvious that if you are leaned over so far that parts are dragging, or you are running out of tire, about to low side, it would be great to squeak out a couple more degrees of lean angle, and that is precisely what happens when you shift your weight to the inside of the corner. Additionally, taking some weight off the seat and putting it on the pegs (kinda squatting) especially on the outisde peg, is supposed to help.

BUT! You don't have to necessarily drag a knee to acomplish this weight transfer. I STILL haven't found a good answer for why drag a knee. Maybe there is something to the whole extra stability arguement, or using the knee as a feeler to guage lean angle, or I've even heard it just makes the corners less scary if you're already halfway on the ground.

So having said all of this.... I'll never understand why a rider would be so concerned about dragging a knee when they aren't even close to using all of the bikes lean angle. I've seen pictures of guys who are dragging a knee, and the bike is almost going straight down the road. It looks goofy. Not the guy in the article, that is hardcore, but anyway.

And having said all of that, I have to admit. I've never "touched down" and I'm always sliding my ass off the seat anyway. And like that kid said, what the hell would I do anyway? Drag my jeans? I don't even have pucks! After all these years, I'm still a friggins squid, what can I say!

Great article though really.

Ride safe on New Years Day, see you guys in the spring. Vin and El

[TOM-CAT]

BUT! You don't have to necessarily drag a knee to acomplish this weight transfer. I STILL haven't found a good answer for why drag a knee. Maybe there is something to the whole extra stability arguement, or using the knee as a feeler to guage lean angle, or I've even heard it just makes the corners less scary if you're already halfway on the ground...Vin, you bring up a number of arguments that I have also heared over the years. The most convincing one being the one about extra stability. In fact, just this last season at PIR I was able to prevent a potential lowside in the outside of turn three by bracing myself with my knee and transfering more weight off of the bike. So I would agree with at least this argument. :crash:

[rickster]

Vinnie, the three basic reason for dragging knees/various body parts are indeed, and not in any particular order:

1. Gauging how far over you've leaned the bike. This would be most useful if you already knew where the limits of traction are, relative to lean angle. From a racing standpoint I'm dubious about the usefulness of it for this reason, due to so many variables occuring between tracks, tires, conditions, etc. I can see where it would be good for a general guide, though.
2. The center of gravity of the bike/rider changes dramatically when the rider hangs off, especially when he/she is a fat-ass like myself. It's very similar to the effect the passenger has in a sidecar rig. The net result is that the bike can carry more speed through the turn at a given lean angle because the extra weight on the inside of the bike helps it turn without using more lean angle. Ask a physicist for the specifics. The trade-off is that the bike will become less stable with the CG changed dramatically; that's why it's best to get your body position changed on the bike before braking/steering, especially at lower speeds (see "fat-ass" above).
3. Like Tom said, there are some riders (a very small percentage) that can actually use their knee to help save a front end slide that would normally have been given up as lost. However, the knee support has to be accompanied by a corresponding "picking up of the bike" with the throttle, that is, giving it enough throttle to unload the front to the point that it starts gripping again. Try that when your bunghole has just inhaled the seat of your leathers!
4. The bonus reason(s): It's fun and looks cool! One of my fondest memory clips is of dragging my knee through turn 8 at approx. 150 mph at Willow on my 888. Nothing that I've done on a bike before or since can equal the feeling I got from doing that. :blah-blah :blah-blah :blah-blah

[TOM-CAT]

...Try that when your bunghole has just inhaled the seat of your leathers!...:lol:

[ZXenigma]

You guys are the best! And that one about the bunghole, very funny. How do we get a track built down here? Doubt Mayor Piercy would go for it.... Unless we could disguise it as.... Hmmmm, an organic produce co-op! "Watch out for the runout on turn 3, the tomatoes are a mess!"

Thanks guys, Vinny

[rickster]

Hmmm, local track; that's a great idea! Once, as a very young man, I entertained fantasies of re-opening Oregon International Raceway. For those of you that aren't familiar with it, most of it is now covered by the Short Mountain landfill. As a young lad I could hear the distant roar of the race cars from our farm off of Cloverdale Rd., just across the Coast Fork. Before it became a dump, I thought it would be cool to buy it, re-pave it, and open it up, then reality set in. I think unless there is some land that becomes available that no one else wants, and the environmentalists leave town for about three years, a local track probably won't happen any time soon. Nice thought though, Vin!Sorry; got a little off topic. It must be effects of the New Belgium 2 Below; Yum, Yum! (Oops; I did it again!)

[Triplespeed]

that is a good read tom

[TOM-CAT]

that is a good read tomGlad you liked it. :yes:

Sorry you didn't get to make it out for the New year's ride, I am guessing your ride is all tucked away for the cold season.

[Flyte Risk]

Good read and alot of useful info there.

I just felt that it missed the section about how getting a knee down is a by-product of speed. Speed comes from many individual factors to say "this" is how it's done. I've always thought that a person should work on a smooth fluid technique and body position then getting a knee down. If you get that, the knee will follow.

[Wordamous Prime]

All aspects covered very nicely. He put alot of thought and time into that. Much respect.:clapping: